Totally Random

[lanalucy]

I followed a link on a comm today to try to learn something more about using appropriate language with people who are not me. I finished the article, read the comments, and ended up more confused than ever. I still don't know what to call people who aren't me. Over the last year, I've learned that the label I put on myself isn't appropriate - it has to be prefaced. So if I don't know what to call myself, how am I supposed to know what to call everyone else?


This link was specifically about gender-identity and sexuality (I think - I honestly don't even know what to call it anymore), and how using a word - the example was "tranny" - can be damaging to a person, reinforcing years of verbal or other abuse.

I don't intentionally use labels to denigrate other people. I do have labels in my head that until they are pointed out to me, I don't read them as insulting. To me, who grew up in a family full of mechanics, a tranny is a piece of a car - a damn expensive piece of a car. I've never used the word to describe a person, but I have been told to stop using it, because it offends people. How? I'm not using it to describe people.

Specifically, I'm learning this because I'm personally affected by it - someone I know is dealing with this issue on a daily basis, and yet, I still don't understand it. Really, I am not afraid to say that I don't get it. I can't understand it, can't even empathize. I've never been uncomfortable in my own body - the kind of uncomfortable that makes surgery or a lifetime of drug-therapy a viable option. At most, I've wondered how much easier camping or road trips would be if I could whip out my penis and pee in a bush or off the side of the road. Still, I've never wanted to be a man.

What I can do is ACCEPT that you are presenting yourself to me as what you wish to be. You present to me as female, and unless you tell me otherwise, that's what you are. Same goes if you present as male. I don't go looking for subtle signs that you are just pretending. If you want to share that part of your journey with me, I will be as welcoming as I know how to be, up to my limits. I'm not afraid to say, "Okay, I've reached the point where I need to go away and process before I can take more input." That's not about you, about me thinking there's something wrong with you, it's about how my mind works.

According to the new labels, being born in a female body and feeling female makes me cis-female. I looked it up, because I needed to understand where the prefix came from in order to use it. Yes, I'm weird. The cis prefix is 'near' or 'in the vicinity of' making me near-female or in-the-vicinity-of-female? Except I'm not. I'm a girl. A woman. A female. A bitch, even. A cranky, curmudgeonly, twisted and deviant woman on the verge of fifty. I don't know how to respond when someone says, "Oh, you're cis-female." Except to say, "No. I'm a female. There's no cis about it." Why is that wrong?

Does anyone else understand this enough to talk me through this? I'm willing to learn new things. I just need more than "Oh, this is the new way to say it, but I can't explain it, it just is," to internalize it, to make it stick.


My apologies if I failed to express myself adequately or if I did it in a way that offends you. It is definitely not intentional.

Comments

[baliao.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Calling someone a tranny is a bit like calling someone an n-word. It's best just to stay clear.

Even if a person doesn't present as female, that doesn't mean that not being identified as female isn't terribly painful. Surgery and hormones are expensive and difficult, there are family and career issues to contend with as well as concerns about passing. Despite the recent LGBT advances it is still considered okay to make jokes about trans people in the media. If a transwoman doesn't pass perfectly, she will be laughed at. Humiliated publicly almost everywhere. Trans-people go through hell to try to get some relief from the pain that comes with having these sorts of gender identity issues. And so 'woman' and 'man' are considered a matter of identity. If someone identifies as a woman, they are a woman and female pronouns should be used where appropriate. It's just a way of avoiding some unnecessary pain.

'"Oh, you're cis-female." Except to say, "No. I'm a female. There's no cis about it." Why is that wrong?'

The problem is that it suggests that people who are trans-women are somehow not women.

'Cis' is just used to distinguish between trans and not trans.

Sorry if this isn't helpful. I have to run to work.

FWIW, 'female' generally refers to biological gender. It's pretty rare to see the cis/trans nomenclature used with it.

[lanalucy]

I guess part of what I don't get is how me labelling myself female implies anything about anyone else. Second to that is why with all the vehemence about being called the right thing, I should accept a label that does not make sense to me.

I'm not arguing, more thinking "out loud."

[lanalucy]

I think I kind of expect people to correct me if I use the wrong pronouns. "I prefer she. Thank you." Okay - I can do that. I don't question why she prefers to be she, and I don't care whether she is in a suit/tie/ugly brown loafers or a pencil skirt and heels. That said, I've never known anyone during the transition, who shared with me that they were transitioning. I've known people both before and after and had no trouble making the correction in my head.

I'm struggling with this (and I get that it's nowhere near the struggle this person is experiencing) because I have known them as one gender for a long time, and now they have made a statement. "I wish to be addressed as x." It *should* be an easy thing to fix in my head, but I am struggling with it. Luckily, they are understanding of this and have agreed to gentle corrections when I unconsciously use the wrong descriptors, and I have agreed to be more mindful of my speech in public (and in private, of course!).

[baliao.livejournal.com]

You are one of the most loving, inclusive people out there, you know that? Props.

Using the wrong pronoun/name comes across as a sort of a slap in in the face. Rejection is the norm so even accidental misgendering naturally comes across as rejection.

It's a shame, but from what I've seen there's a sense of exclusion in the trans community. A lot of animosity too, in fact. There's a strange, "I may be gay, but at least I'm not trans" vibe that can be seen sometimes in the gay side of the LGBT community. Because trans acceptance is so much lower than gay acceptance, there seems to be the impression that many try to distance themselves publicly. There was a time when a lot of feminists saw transwomen as straight men who were trying to co-opt or even mock womanhood by making it out to be something that can be obtained through wardrobe choices or surgery. Supposed natural allies said things that should probably go unprinted. It's improving, but while gay marriage is fast rocketing toward almost interracial marriage levels of public acceptance, it's still no big deal to make cheap "hahaha look at the dude in a dress" jokes on TV. There's loads of bitterness.

The whole cis/trans thing is just a sub category of "woman." Just a way of emphasizing that someone is not somehow less of a woman for lacking certain organs. I wouldn't expect a transwoman to call herself that. She'd call herself a woman unless there was some need to make the distinction. Same for ciswomen/men. It don't think many trans people *identify* as trans. It seems to be more of a description than anything else. A fact they would like to put behind themselves after transitioning. YMMV.

Another thing to consider is whether it's okay to use the person's preferred pronouns/name publicly. That was a big deal, I recall, when I was involved with the campus LGBT organization. Often someone might unable to come out publicly, and might choose to confide in only a few people. In which case it's a serious faux-pas (to say the least) to let the cat out of the bag by using the person's chosen name and pronouns where it could raise questions.

[lanalucy]

Thanks. I try to be. And I seriously needed that today.

I did one of those Safe Allies things at the university when I was there (there needed to be at least one certified Safe Ally in each building or something along those lines), and it was pretty comprehensive, but still not approaching the level of information I'm trying to absorb now.

Rejection is such a hard thing, and ANYthing can trigger feeling like we're being rejected.

"The whole cis/trans thing is just a sub category of "woman." Just a way of emphasizing that someone is not somehow less of a woman for lacking certain organs. "

That's finally where I got with this last night. I don't like the label, but how many times in my life is it going to come up? Is it going to matter in five years that someone put that label on me and I let myself get angry over it? No. So, I'll just accept the label if it ever comes up in conversation and move on. Pick my battles, so to speak, because seriously, what someone labels ME is nothing in the overall scheme of things - I don't care when people call me ugly names, so why am I getting cranky about this? There are far more important things for me to get angry or hurt about.

In this particular case, I was told, "This is the name I have chosen, and this is how I wish to be addressed, even if my father or brother are around. If they don't like it, it's their problem." Prior to this, I was taking the path of least resistance, and I explained that. "You say you don't care which pronouns or what name I use, so I'll continue to use the ones I'm used to. When and if you tell me you want that to be different, I'll do that." So now that I have a clear-cut decision and instructions, I can adjust.

I have learned via some heated (not angry, but passionate) discussions on this and related subjects, that I do not look at people in the "normal" way, so I guess I'm a special snowflake. Like I didn't already know that.

{hugs}

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I can't help you too much, but I'll be interested to see the responses. I understand some of it, especially when it comes to trans issues. I'll confess I don't understand genderqueer at all. I'm not saying it doesn't exist- I just don't understand and no amount of explaining gets me to. It reminds me of when they tried to explain my son's body awareness issues- I certainly believe they exist- I can see the evidence- but I don't get it. I understand the concept of body dimorphism more, so in general trans makes more sense to me, but I'm lost on genderqueer.

I think part of it for me is that the way I learned feminism, it was the only differences between the sexes/genders was biological. So, men can't have babies and women can't use urinals easily, essentially. When I was growing up it was the "anything boys can do girls can do better" mindset, but now as I've gotten thinking about it more, it's also "anything girls can do, boys can do too" :) Just the idea that men can take on more traditionally feminine roles or like feminine things. I cannot get my mind to separate gender and sex at all. So if it helps, I'm right there with you.

The tranny thing I do absolutely get- even though you're not describing people and have absolutely no ill intent, the word tranny has taken on terrible meanings outside the automotive mechanic world. It would be like if a car part was called a n-word in slang, I think. Even though you're talking about the car, the word can be so terrible in other contexts that just hearing it bothers people. I don't think there are many words that fall into that category, but I think because of the violence that has been perpetuated against people who are trans, it is making that transition. (To give you an idea, I had the n-word typed out and had to change it because I was uncomfortable. It's starting to get to that level for a lot of people.)

As far as cis- and trans- terminology, I find it easier to understand if you look at chemistry and how the words are used there. When you have a carbon-carbon double bond, you have four positions open:

|.....|
C = C
|.....|

(ignore the periods- they're there as place holders)

When you have your major groups on the same side, it's called cis. When the major groups are on the opposite sides, it's trans. If you think of the two major groups as "identity" (I) and "assigned" (A), you get:

Cis:

I.....A
|......|
C = C

Trans:

I
|
C = C
.......|
......A

So for cis, the sex you feel and the sex you're assigned are on the same side, and for trans, they're on the opposite side. (Side of what, I have no idea. This is just my analogy that makes sense to me.) That said, while I recognize that I'm cis, I also don't particularly call myself cis. To be honest, until Tumblr came along, I just didn't think of it much.

Hope that helps a little, or even just the knowledge that on a lot of it, we can be confused together :)

[lanalucy]

Maybe that will make sense when I look at it later. Right now, I'll take confused together.

Okay, so cis- and trans- are used in chemistry? Maybe that'll help my brain take it in.

I still don't like the label applied to me, but c'est la vie.

[fragrantwoods.livejournal.com]

This is probably going to ramble, just so you know...

I get you on the "tranny" thing, in that it hasn't been that long ago that a mechanic who primarily re-built transmissions was called a "tranny" or a tranny guy. Things change...ten years ago I had to discipline a social worker for referring to someone whose lips were swollen with a descriptor using the n-word. In her mind that had nothing to do with using that word to insult African-Americans.

If you go on younger social media, you get a lot of exposure to uses of "lame" etc. as being wrong, but in other settings, it's thrown around constantly, as is "retarded." It's a shock after being on LJ and tumblr!

There are times when I wonder if all the focus on words is a set-up to distract us from things like the economy and, oh, yeah, we're still at war with folks. Yet, words ARE important. They're all we have to communicate our thoughts and feelings and attitudes.

The cis thing was very confusing and I didn't know if it was an acronym or just what, until I found the explanation used in lls_mutant's comment. I don't know how hard it would be to get used to using "cis-woman" as a routine description of myself but that may be an old brain issue. It's like, I don't describe myself as "heterosexual" when I'm in casual chatting settings. But if I were in a discussion where that was pertinent, I would. IF someone asked if I was a cis-woman, I guess I'd assume it was pertinent and say yes.

I learned a lot more about this kind of thing when I was researching testosterone usage and saw how many transgendered people there were, just in the subset of the ones who were taking hormone therapy and posting about it.

I think the arenas where it would be important to use the cis-language are pretty specific. I wouldn't use it on a financial/social message board I frequent: most people there wouldn't know what it meant and there's just now a movement to stop using "retarded". But I would on tumblr, etc.

I have no idea if that's helpful or not. Not my best thinking day.

[lanalucy]

"It's like, I don't describe myself as "heterosexual" when I'm in casual chatting settings. But if I were in a discussion where that was pertinent, I would. IF someone asked if I was a cis-woman, I guess I'd assume it was pertinent and say yes. "

There are lots of other things in my life that if asked, I will answer truthfully, and if no one asks, I do not offer. Maybe this is the important thing. It's not a label that will be used very often, if at all, and I just need to shine it on in the rare occasions when the label is useful.

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

That sounds reasonable. That sort of context might be like a discussion at Linguaphiles, where people identify themselves by 'ESL student' or 'native English* speaker' or 'native speaker' etc.

* or whatever

The Mark of the Plural

[nyyki.livejournal.com]

Defaults show dominance, leaving those outside the default as outsiders. This is why there's a movement to erase those defaults, as being specific, while also increasing the amount of information in the system, also lowers the "otherness" quotient for those who are outside the default group. It came from an outgrowth of the equal rights and feminism movements.
Each person has theree elements in their sexual matrix. Biological gender, formerly thought to be a polarity, deals with the biology. Sexual preference deals with attraction, and we've known for a long time now that it's a pure spectrum, with few people sharing a place on it. Gender identity is the third element, and it too is spectral in nature, though our society thinks about it as another polarity. In fact society has approached all three as polarities in the general population until recently, and many still do. But this type of three-pole approach explains things like MTF lesbians.
There's a very good article out there titled "What's in Your Backpack?" (Lucy, it's on the server, ask me for the location if you're interested) that deals with a lot of this and how what's called "the mark of the plural" works. This is a concept that we stereotype anyone in the "other" category.
Calling yourself Cisgendered is a sign of respect for transgendered folks. As a society we don't tend to do this well in the general population, or we'd refer to "whites" as European-Americans. (I sometimes refer to myself, even though I detest labels, as German/Irish-American, Northern European American, or Texan-American because my family has been here for at least six generations)
I've said this before -- if you can't grok being gender incoherent, (the current term for this condition in the DSM-V released about a year ago) then I thank the gods for your lack of connection with this feeling. This is an experiental thing, and to understand it is to have it, much like understanding what it means to be pregnant or to go through a life-threatening encounter. For those who don't get the Gender Queer experience Kate Bornstein's book "Gender Outlaws", the follow-up to her "Gender Outlaw" book, has a lot of useful information in it, especially anecdotal accounts from folks who have no desire to conform to gender polarities. The Androgyny RAQ on the web also can provide some useful information on those who choose the middle path in gender expression, an area we lack effective pronouns for. (Zie and Hir are cumbersome)
I'm living this, and I've spent a lot of time learning the theories, in's, and outs of it, so feel free to ask. (Not only Lucy, but others too -- I live to increase understanding for folks)

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

In haste....

'CIS' always looked like an acronym to me too. Then someone explained that it went back to classical root as meaning something like 'native' or (in this context) 'original equipment'.

I'd suggest researching these original meanings for 'cis' for a better feel for it. As for 'near to', that would be in contrast to 'far from'.

[lanalucy]

Thank you...

Actually, I did go to the roots - it's either Latin or Greek, I don't remember which - and that's where I got the "near" or "in the vicinity of" definitions of the prefix. So instead of finding useful information that would help me grok the term and use it, I just got irritated because I don't like it being applied to me.

On the other hand, what other people think of me is none of my business, so maybe I should just accept it and move on to something more important than a label for me.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I don't think that cis-female/male is going catch on as the normal descriptor of gender. But I do think it is important for cis-gender people to understand, to empathize with the constant need for transgender people to add explain themselves. At the same time I don't think that any of the transgender people I know or have known would really want people to use cis-gender. But I've never asked so I could be wrong.

[lanalucy]

"the constant need for transgender people to add explain themselves."

What do they need to explain? Seriously asking.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

In the sense that they have to defend their rights to be their gender and not an assigned gender. In the sense that they have to ask to called a preferred pronoun. In the sense that they all to frequently have to fight for their privacy and risk being outed or be accused of tricking people when their assigned birth identity is discovered.

Now, should they have to explain or defend themselves, hell no. But until we live in a world where we don't have to label and sub-label, it's a nice reminder of the privilege and ease that comes from living the norm. I still don't think cis-gender identifiers are going to become the casual norm. For medical or legal reasons maybe or when it's germane to a specific conversation or need, doesn't bother me.

I have, however, known more an a few people in transition male to female, female to male, both adult and children. One of whom is someone who is very willing to discuss his experiences so I have learned a lot about the minute struggles and the joy at being able to pick a pronoun on Facebook.

[lanalucy]

Okay. So they have to explain themselves to people who have no manners, as I grew up understanding them. People lacking in couth, as my grandmother would say.

Being around during the transition is new to me. I am learning as much about that, I think, as I am about being blind, as much as I can learn without going through either experience myself.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

But "those people" are being rude, they're being bigots. So if trans-gender need extra support and understanding in the form my using an extra prefix on occasion, it's the least I can do as an ostensibly straight cis-female.

[lanalucy]

I'm being as supportive as I know how to be.

I expect to be poked when I do something wrong, so that I can course-correct.

And I'm trying to learn, thus the questions - I'm aware that my knowledge of the subject and its impact are lacking.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I totally get that you asking this question comes from a place of being supportive. I simply see using the cis prefix as a bigger picture course correction. A way for people to think about the privilege of normalcy.

But am I thinking now about what I would do if someone asked me to. To use cis-female as regular conversation. I don't know how often it would come up. I mean how often does anyone really introduce their gender that there isn't some kind of other motive. Because I'm not entirely sure I'd be comfortable with that. Nor am I sure about using 'they' instead of he or she on the off chance someone uses the other pronoun. Although I do use they/them in cases where I don't know who specifically I'm talking to.

The use of pronouns is how I've ended up knowing so much about my friend C's transition. C transitioned through 'they' on the way to 'he' from 'she', which has always touched me as one of the bravest things I've even know someone to do. It seems so simple and yet he had to go to HR and request a pronoun be added for forms. I can't imagine doing that. We were talking about it because of writing though. I have a weird thing for pronouns when I write and I was curious how C approaches pronouns in his writing.

[lanalucy]

I don't know how often it will come up, either.

This has been informative, for sure.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Glad it's been informative. It's something that I've been thinking a lot about. Not just because I've known people in transition, including two men who are much more pleasant women and a child, but it fascinates me. Identity fascinates me. The idea of having to discover, rediscover and then fight for the ability to be the right you has really drawn me in.

[carose59.livejournal.com]

As far as the word tranny used to describe a transmission being verboten, I see it as being like people who want the word niggardly removed from the vocabulary. There's no connection between nigger and niggardly, but nigger has become so freighted, even sounding like it is damning.

[lanalucy]

There is that. Ah, the hubbub of that word in polite society. I was totally clueless the first time someone jumped on me about it. "Uh, huh? Wha...?"